We conclude our trilogy of episodes on Chapter 21 of The Silmarillion, “Of Túrin Turambar.” After Glaurung sacks Nargothrond, Morwen pulls a Thingol and ignores Melian’s advice. She leaves Doriath, Nienor secretly follows, and the dragon ensnares another child of Húrin. We witness a fateful reunion of brother and sister, and the final showdown between hero and dragon. We close the sad tale with a discussion of fate, free will, pity and mean, mean pride in a marathon podcast that challenges popular opinions about Tolkien’s tragic hero… and the stamina of your hosts.
Recommended Reading:
Tolkien, J. R. R. The Silmarillion (Mariner Books, paperback) pp. 209-217, “Of Túrin Turambar”
Quite late to post this but I’ve only recently started listening to the podcast. You might have mentioned this in one of the subsequent episodes, but just in case I’ll throw it out there.
Your comments on Saeros’ apparent elvish foresight in his taunt about the women of Hithlum running essentially naked strikes me as more than likely an example of the fate that you mentioned. Not only did Nienor run like a deer while naked, but so did Saeros himself the day after his taunt. “On the next day Saeros waylaid Túrin as he set out from Menegroth to return to the marches; but Túrin overcame him, and set him to run naked as a hunted beast through the woods.”
“…Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else [i.e. Eldar at least],” indeed.
Excerpt From
The Silmarillion
J. R. R. Tolkien
https://books.apple.com/us/book/the-silmarillion/id503164678
This material may be protected by copyright.
Excerpt From
The Silmarillion
J. R. R. Tolkien
https://books.apple.com/us/book/the-silmarillion/id503164678
This material may be protected by copyright.
Dear Alan and Shawn
I came to your show only recently and hence only a few episodes in (currently 41). I had a couple of things that I wanted to mention.
1) at one point you were wondering about the sex of sun and moon (female sun, male moon) – in German that remains the sex of these, which makes me wonder whether this has old germanic roots (and hence for Tolkien AngloSaxon).
2) Turin: I had forgotten that Finduilas could have save him from his doom. I found this point fascinating and one could got off on a tangent here that may be worth exploring. Moreover, I have not found this on detailed research (okay, a quick google) on the topic. It is commonly held that in the ‘what if’ scenario, Turin had successfully rescued Finduilas, he would not have had ended up in the tragic relationship with Nienor. I think this is were most of the speculation of how Finduilas could have stopped his tragedy ends. However, one surely has to take this one further. Had he saved Finduilas, presumably they may have wedded and had children. I know you will point out that it is Turin of the bad choices, but here we have entered a universe were Turin has started to make good choices to avoid his doom. Of course, children of Finduilas and Turin would have been a very similar blood line to Earendil and could potentially have taken on the role that came to him (sorry, Shawn).
There is a further aspect that makes this story, to my mind, more plausible . Morgoth reserved a particular hatred for Hurin of all men, because he could see the danger that would arise against him from the line of Galdor and Haleth. Morgoth expends considerable resource (curses, dispatching armies and even Glaurung) to prevent the senior branch of this line (Hurin/Turin) to grow to it’s potential. However, he therefore forgets about Huor (who after all is dead, and Tuor was born after the death of his father). By Turin struggling against the curse and Morgoth focusing on him, Tuor is unnoticed and can fill the gap.
The true tragedy of Turin’s story is hence not just the what happened, but the wider what could/should have happened.
Hope that makes sense. Anyway, as I am on chapter 41 of the podcast, if you do speculate on this on the show I will get to listen to it in a few years time. However, as you are on the lord of the rings and this may not fit in, would just be interested to read your thoughts!